originaluddite ([info]originaluddite) wrote,
@ 2009-10-05 18:24:00
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Supernatural Moral
I had lunch with a friend recently on the grounds of the Australian National University (ANU). Following lunch I walked past what looked like the start of a public debate. Posters close by told me it was a debate between the local skeptics and evangelical Christians. For a moment that part of my that enjoys arguments (a dwindling part in recent times) wanted to stay and watch the show but I quickly changed my mind and walked on. The topic was presumably over the existence of God which would inevitably have been yet another "coz I say so" kind of exchange. Even the likely tone put me off - skeptics who think they are so clever versus fundamentalists who feel they are so very right. I also think the debate itself is lop-sided.

The objective of the skeptics is to dismiss any and all things supernatural. In contrast the fundamentalists are only interested in asserting the existence of one supernatural thing - a monotheist god. I would rather see a program of two separate debates. In the first of such debates the skeptics would face a mixed panel of anyone who embraces the supernatural (say a Christian and a Hindu and a Shintoist). Seeing such groups interact would be interesting in itself. Only once the matter of the supernatural was debated would there then be a second debate in which the virtues of different religions were discussed.

What kind of decision-making processes are involved in choosing a religion if one thinks that there is such a thing as supernatural agents that expect us to have a relationship with them? For many religious practitioners I suspect context and circumstance direct the decision made. A person decides that monotheism makes sense to them and the society they live in has a predominantly Christian heritage so naturally they become Christian. There is still the matter of which denomination in which to participate but that may be affected by who one knows - family and friends go to a particular church and are happy to provide an invitation to the next gathering.

But what if the prospective religious person decided to make a conscious investigation of the alternatives. A debate between religions would be more focused on morality than on cosmology as different religions vie for adherents. And in introducing morality I am interested in the moral standing of the supernatural agents themselves. So much religion focuses on the actions of mortals but what of immortals?

Is it - for instance - right for a parental figure to allow its wayward children to be tortured forever if it can do anything at all to prevent it. Many parents the world over will have adult children who have done what they consider to be wrong and yet they will still love and accept those children and do anything they can for them. That is the nature of parental love. Should we expect more or less from a supernatural parent? I would think we would expect more. And yet the historical development of religions is such that we assess the conduct of gods on the basis of barbarian monarchs from times in which the concept of compassion lacked any kind of prestige.

An atheist will deny the existence of such monsters of the imagination. But as an agnostic I have to consider the possibility (however remote) that the assertions of the most hateful of fundamentalists may be right. And if they are right what should I do? The pragmatic thing would be to choose the most vengeful of religions and do what it says to the letter. But I have a hunch that resisting intimidation and abuse even if it has a supernatural form is the moral thing to do. It may be a difficult thing to do however once I am shown the instruments of torture.

And those instruments of torture are shown to us even in this day-and-age. There on that street corner on a busy shopping day is the intense stare and the stirring words of an evangelist who rants on-and-on about fire and brimstone and whose placard asks "where will you spend eternity". Such a person may be in a tiny minority compared with those Christians who interpret Hell as the much milder "absence of God". But such a person has the visibility and passion and for many of us is the face of Christianity (which I focus on because of the history of my culture even while I am aware that other world religions have similar problems).

I have sometimes considered asking one of those street corner advocates how they feel peddling terror. I think they may respond that they are warning us of the dangers of Satan rather than of God but for me a protection racket is still a form of assault. Ultimately we work under very different assumptions. For the evangelist goodness is whatever God says it is. For me however 'might is right' is a philosophy we need to consign to the history books.

Cross-posted here.



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[info]bar_barra
2009-10-05 08:36 am UTC (link)
I think you have it in one. Peddling terror is what they do, and for those of us who call ourselves Christians but haven't abandoned the Enlightenment these guys are very embarrassing indeed. We feel the same way about them as the Muslim kids I used to teach felt about jihadi-loonies. As you know, JRRT's view of hell was a lot saner. Yes, Mordor/Angband are real places where torment is eternal. Don't blame them on God. It's where Satan's incarnations live. Why doesn't God crush them? Well, yeah, but it's hard to do that without breaking the world. What worries me more are the sceptics who say if you can't see/touch/taste it then it isn't real. It's hard to know where to start with those guys. And I haven't got many answers. I've given conference papers on this topic but I fear their non-belief is hermetic and impermeable. So mostly I don't bother. Good luck with that.

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[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 03:55 am UTC (link)
I like it if someone says that lack answers. That is very reassuring. You refer to the Enlightenment and I am mindful that it was in part a follow-on from the Reformation. My recent Facebook status had me expressing gratitude to Protestantism for sparking the secular society we now live in.

As for Middle Earth - well one thing that is interesting with it is that I cannot think of a supernatural hell as such (except for the exile of Morgoth from _everything_ but if I remember rightly it only happens to Morgoth). But as you say Mordor is pretty hellish but it is very much a part of the world. And the thing in Lord Of The Rings is that characters act in good ways because they think it is right rather than because of anything Eru is holding over them.

Incidentally some geography academic with too much spare time has projected a somewhat distorted image of Middle Earth onto a satellite photograph of Europe: http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/middle-earth.jpg

Morder is moreorless Transylvania - they so need a better PR firm!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]bar_barra
2009-10-06 11:24 am UTC (link)
Transylvania!!! Hilarious. Yeah, look, people who do what they think is good for fear of a great big hairy foot from the clouds: I'm sorry, but that's just balls. Jehovah gave that up around the Book of Micah and it's a bit sad to see it still up and about. And as you say: there is no supernatural hell. He actually uses the word hell to describe Angband several times. Just to make the point. Most Christians I know would say of supernatural hells that bad people make their own, and unfortunately there's nothing much God can do about it. Beyond: look, this looks really bad and I wish you hadn't locked yourself in there. Would you consider coming out at all?????

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-07 12:58 am UTC

[info]roccondilrinon
2009-10-05 09:44 am UTC (link)
I also have to agree. As an atheist I am comfortable with the very small probability of these things being real. (Incidentally, the only agnostics who are not also atheists by definition are those who believe in god/s but are uncertain as to his/their nature. If I am uncertain of the very existence of such beings, I cannot be simultaneously said to believe in them and I am, whether I like the word or not, an atheist. I suspect you're in this category. It's an unhappy word that should not have to exist, but there we are.) As an agnostic, I do consider the possibility, but I also consider the morality involved if one were to actually take Pascal's Wager (that is, following a religion on the off-chance of reward rather than because of any conviction that it's right). As far as I'm concerned, the cognitive dissonance would be too great. My habitual refutation of Pascal's Wager is this: If God does not exist (I'm using the singular for convenience, but you can substitute a whole supernatural pantheon and the argument still works), I spare myself the cognitive dissonance and potential moral evils, not to mention the waste of time of the worship and ritual involved in appeasing him. I consider this to be by far the most probable case, as it requires no assumptions beyond what observation, investigation and introspection can tell us. If, as is theoretically possible however unlikely, God does exist, he is either a vengeful God who will strike down all unbelievers, or he is a compassionate, good one who will not punish anyone for using the brains he gave them, even if they happened to use them to make honest mistakes. If he is the vengeful God, then he is not a good God, and I would not want to worship him anyway; and there are so many such gods in so many different sects that my probability of happening on the real one is depressingly close to zero anyway. I still spare myself the cognitive dissonance and even if he tortures me for eternity I retain the moral high ground. Given the high unlikelihood of this scenario, I'm not overly troubled by it. If he is a genuinely good God, then I have nothing to fear from being honest to myself and he will probably think better of me than of those who took the chance out of fear or greed.

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[info]damien_wise
2009-10-05 12:54 pm UTC (link)
Incidentally, the only agnostics who are not also atheists by definition are those who believe in god/s but are uncertain as to his/their nature.

That makes no sense.
It's like saying "Apples are not oranges, therefore they're leopards that might have spots".

Atheists are not agnostics. To conflate the two and use that illogical leap as a springboard weakens your subsequent argument.

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[info]taiba
2009-10-05 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Actually, they are.

I do not believe that there is a god, because of the lack of evidence. BUT, I am open to the possibility and, were such evidence to arise, I would change my position on the matter.

Thus, by being open to the possibility, I am also an agnostic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]damien_wise, 2009-10-06 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-06 08:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]polly_jl_morgan, 2009-10-10 01:14 am UTC

[info]roccondilrinon
2009-10-05 09:22 pm UTC (link)
I don't actually use it as a springboard; it's just a mistake I noticed in the original post and decided to point out. You may notice it's in brackets. The rest of my reply doesn't depend on it at all.

But by nature, an agnostic who does not believe in gods but is merely undecided about their existence is not a theist (or a polytheist or a henotheist or any variation thereon) and is therefore an atheist. You can't be undecided about something's existence while at the same time believing in it, because to believe in it is to be decided about its existence. An atheist is one who does not believe; an agnostic who is undecided about existence does not believe; therefore such an agnostic is an atheist. It's not conflation as such, it's just correlation. The two terms don't overlap completely. There are agnostics who are not atheists; they're sure something's there, they just make no claims as to its nature. There are atheists who are not agnostics; they don't even consider the possibility they may be mistaken, just like religious believers. In my personal opinion, an intellectually honest atheist must also be technically an agnostic, and I am.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-06 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-06 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-07 01:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-07 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-08 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-08 06:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-08 11:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pezzae, 2009-10-06 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-06 08:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-07 01:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taiba, 2009-10-08 06:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-08 11:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-08 01:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pezzae, 2009-10-09 07:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-10 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-12 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-07 01:02 am UTC

[info]dzurlady
2009-10-05 10:38 am UTC (link)
Even the likely tone put me off - skeptics who think they are so clever versus fundamentalists who feel they are so very right.
Yes, exactly! You have put your finger on what often annoys me so much about that kind of debate.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 03:19 am UTC (link)
And it is different - potentially different - from other debates like political debates in which there is some common ground and some desire to come to an understanding.

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[info]taiba
2009-10-08 06:28 am UTC (link)
The problem is that, usually, the "faithful" have no understanding of the scientific method and refuse to learn about it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]actrealdon
2009-10-05 11:11 am UTC (link)
I've always wondered why a supreme being would desire to be worshipped by lesser beings.

I don't want ants to worship me, so if God is more superior to me than I am to an ant, surely he is even less likely to want to be worshipped?

That said, in the bit of the brain that believes in this stuff, I'm probably more deist/pantheist than atheist.

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[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 03:35 am UTC (link)
There are times I have a pantheist inclination - particularly while walking along an ocean beach.

I think the difference between God and humanity is smaller than between humans and ants. While God is 'all-powerful' and we are only somewhat powerful (the distinction you are drawing) both God and humanity have a particular kinship (that whole created in the image of thing) hence the whole parental analogy. Hence the demand for loyalty (which makes sense from the perspective of a nomadic subsistence way-of-life).

P S Ants would never worship a stinky caterpillar!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mawaridi
2009-10-05 11:12 am UTC (link)
In many cases I don't think there really is a choice involved in believing that there is some supernatural force at work in the universe. Well, there is eventually, but I think a lot of people who are devoutly or incidentally religious are so partly because they've been told from childhood that God is a reality of the universe, just as they may have been taught that foreign countries exist even if they have never visited them, as well as animals they have never seen and various other bits of knowledge we take on faith as children and never end up questioning. Certainly many people evaluate that knowledge later in life, and either decide it is true (giraffes are real and they're awesome!) or decide it is not true (I've never seen a bunyip), or decide it isn't important to them either way (I'm not really that into unicorns). I am an a-theist in the sense that I am a non-theist, a person who does not actively believe in any gods, but not in the fundamentalist or militant sense that, say, Richard Dawkins is an atheist (or perhaps anti-theist). I don't really care if god(s) exist(s) or not, and I strongly suspect the answer is not.

I am uncomfortable with debates about the existence or otherwise of god(s) because neither side is ever going to agree with the other and there is no way to prove either party "right" in a way that will satisfy everyone. I'll have my (dis)belief, and you can have your belief, and we'll be just fine as far as I'm concerned as long as everyone keeps their beliefs more or less to themselves. Of course they don't, but that's not about belief exactly. I do not accept "because God says so" as a reason why I should do or not do certain things, but that doesn't mean I have no moral compass whatsoever, obviously.

Unfortunately I tend to find stories and ideas about supernatural evil beings more believable (inspiring?) than benign ones, so while I am often terrified of imaginary things that go bump in the night I am not soothed by the idea that something is watching over me in a protective way.

That said, your point about vengeful gods and spiritual terrorism struck a chord with me; I originally began to question the Christian beliefs I had taken for granted all my life at the age of thirteen when I started to feel uncomfortable about the concept of hell, and the fact that church services were always telling me to apologise for being bad and wrong when I felt I was mostly a good person. I didn't think I could support a God who thought I was a horrible person even when I tried to be good, or who might abandon me or consign me to eternal misery if I got something wrong.

Edited at 2009-10-05 11:16 am UTC

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[info]taiba
2009-10-05 07:53 pm UTC (link)
"there is no way to prove either party "right" in a way that will satisfy everyone. "

I see no point in debating it because, when it comes to the existence of anything, we must look at the evidence.

Now, you could say that there is also no evidence for extra terrestrial life and yet we keep searching, but the difference there is that we have come up with a definition of what that is, hypotheses on what finding it will look like, and therefore ways to search for that evidence.

As no religious person can tell you "what" god is or how finding such a being empirically will look like, there can be no evidence and we can assume it doesn't exist because no one can even tell you what you're looking for.

If we were to say that this belief is valid because we can't "disprove" the existence of god, then we have to say that every single irrational belief that cannot be disproven is also valid. If I'm convinced that the cosmic forces in the universe are out to get me and are manipulating people without their knowledge to do harm to me, you can't disprove that. Yet any rational person would realise there is something wrong with me and ship me off to a psychiatrist.

Unfortunately, very few people understand this.

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[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 03:26 am UTC (link)
Sometimes they tell you what to look for - like a dude with the head of a falcon! (-8}

I get what you are saying. Some take the statement "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Yes it can apply to God but it can also apply to (say) dragons. Or put it another way "pigs may fly".

Except I wonder if some things make more intuitive sense than others. I get the impression lots of theoretical physicists are attracted by notions of a prime mover for the start of the Universe. Course the culture they live in then fills in the gaps - it could just as easily be Brahma rather than Jehovah. But gods do seem to have a bit more intuitive sense to them than flying pigs - I cannot say exactly why I think that however...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]taiba, 2009-10-08 06:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-08 11:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taiba, 2009-10-09 09:27 pm UTC

[info]taiba
2009-10-05 07:55 pm UTC (link)
" didn't think I could support a God who thought I was a horrible person even when I tried to be good, or who might abandon me or consign me to eternal misery if I got something wrong."

Totally agree with you there. This is where what Roccondil said about not wanting to worship such a cruel and petty being comes in.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 03:45 am UTC (link)
The funny thing is I am perfectly happy for there to be debates that can never be resolved. Many of the ideological differences in politics will never be resolved but I am reconciled with that fact as long as the process of compromise produces satisfactory results most of the time.

In the case of debates over fundamental matters of existence my position is that they can be interesting but that I have been involved in them a sufficient number of times to have lost any personal interest in them. The moral issues are still somewhat interesting however and I think the comment from Polly below covers a lot of the practical problems with having the adherents of vengeful gods having a disproportionate affect on our society.

Your comment about malign and benign supernatural beings intrigues me. Is it that demons provide more creative tension to a story than angels? Is it that a good story needs something difficult to overcome? I am thinking of Buffy here in which the demons are overt but the gods are very covert in nature. And while the demons are keen on actively controlling mortals the gods seem very standoffish.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mauvedragon
2009-10-05 03:33 pm UTC (link)
I was brought up Christian. The process of changing from Christianity to Kemetic polytheism was a series of decisions not one decision. I chose to leave the church. I tried not to have spirituality. I chose to explore other options etc.

I personally believe all gods exist. I also happen to believe that everyone who acts ethically gets to go to the afterlife.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 04:01 am UTC (link)
I have noticed (and I think we may have discussed this) that there is a tendency for one to stay spiritual even if one changes religion. So most of the pagans I know have a Christian background.

Having all gods exist is interesting. What happens if two gods say contradictory things? Is only one telling the truth? The trick here I suppose is that we usually only know what gods say via human interpreters.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]mauvedragon
2009-10-06 11:50 am UTC (link)
All gods exist but only one pantheon is directly relevant to me. Most Kemetic polytheists start with the assumption that the Netjeru (the Ancient Egyptian/Kemetic pantheon) exists but wether any other gods do or do not is mostly irrelevant. I have relationships with individual gods within that pantheon due to unvirified personal gnosis.

Also there is always more than one truth. Anyone who claims otherwise is either one of the children of the book or is selling something.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-07 01:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taiba, 2009-10-08 07:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-10 02:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mauvedragon, 2009-10-10 05:24 am UTC

[info]polly_jl_morgan
2009-10-06 03:15 am UTC (link)
"I have sometimes considered asking one of those street corner advocates how they feel peddling terror. I think they may respond that they are warning us of the dangers of Satan rather than of God but for me a protection racket is still a form of assault. Ultimately we work under very different assumptions. For the evangelist goodness is whatever God says it is. For me however 'might is right' is a philosophy we need to consign to the history books."

Daniel, I so, so agree with this. Why should society have to pander to these people, who clearly have no respect for other people's rights? Why should many people in the community be denied equal legal rights and protections because it offends fundamentalists? Why should my taxes be used to fund private schools run by the Exclusive Bretheren (just as an example)? Why should a friend of mine get a referral for a medical issue from her GP to a private hospital (they also receive taxpayers money), who then refused to allow her partner to stay with her, because they didn't consider her partner to count as "family" just because her partner is the same gender as her, even though they allowed heterosexual partners to stay overnight? Why should our government for years have refused international aid for programs that include information on contraception and access to it? Why do they take the benefits of living in a secular and pluralistic society for themselves, but then seek to deny these benefits to others? Why don't more moderate religious people care about this, and why don't they speak out more about it? Are they just unaware of the ongoing impact of this on our society?

(I realise I'm extremely sensitive to this whole issue at the moment - but these fundamentalists really, really suck).


(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]originaluddite
2009-10-06 04:09 am UTC (link)
There is nothing that matter with feeling angry with someone who makes life difficult for you and yours.

And yes - we cannot separate religion from politics. The problem is they think they are right and if God is such a nasty pasty as they say then it is right for them to try to affect society as they do. But then in a democracy any perspective should only have proportionate impact and I agree that they have disproportionate power because of things like wimpy politicians who overestimate the impact of the fundamentalist vote or who are themselves fundamentalist because of coordinated efforts to infiltrate political parties.

Somehow the rest of us (including religious moderates) need to outmaneuver them. It would be nice to see someone on a street corner informing everyone how important compassion and understanding are. Maybe the Hare Krishnas do but can anyone understand what they are chanting?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]originaluddite
2009-10-10 02:20 am UTC (link)
Thinking more on the political aspects of this. Your "my tax dollars" line could really have an impact in campaign terms. I recently visited the Museum of Australian Democracy at Old Parliament and among the exhibits there are several digital vox-pop installations in which one can vote yes or no or unsure to a proposition. All the questions were answered in what I think of as a 'progressive' way except one. The question of whether citizens should be taxed got a majority response of "no". Maybe some cute line based on the old 'death and taxes' saying could be developed...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]pezzae
2009-10-06 06:46 am UTC (link)
It would be nice if everyone were allowed to freely choose their religion. But all parents inculcate their children with their own beliefs to a greater or lesser extent. In today's secular society, you get to change your mind later. However many people don't ever question what they were told. Sometimes I think Dawkins is right, and that we'd be better off disallowing religions from running schools and affecting children before they have gained the critical thinking skills to make their own choice.
(For context: I was raised atheist, rejected it as a teenager and was pagan for a few years, and now define myself as agnostic. I don't know what happens after we die, but I don't think it should have any relevance to how we live.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]roccondilrinon
2009-10-06 08:49 pm UTC (link)
Hear hear. Religion is powerful and easily misused, and I think the sensible course would be to treat it like anything else that's powerful and easily misused — we needn't ban it, but it should be for adults only. Slap big 18+ signs on church doors, put bibles and such on the top shelf, and forbid them from running schools.

Of course, this would never happen because anyone who tried it would get voted out in a landslide, but I'll leave my reasons for thinking democracy is also a bad idea for another day.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-07 01:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-08 06:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-08 11:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-08 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]originaluddite, 2009-10-09 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roccondilrinon, 2009-10-12 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-10-13 03:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]polly_jl_morgan, 2009-10-13 03:58 am UTC

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